Everyone enjoys a good manual vs. automatic debate...

"Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow" (chriskf)
07/10/2014 at 16:45 • Filed to: None

And there's a good one brewin' on the FT-86 Forums!

If you're curious, all my replies are under the username Shark_Bait88.

DISCUSSION (34)

feather-throttle-not-hair > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 16:50

The OP mentions an "older V6 Lancer" video looks to be of a 16 year old street racing his BRZ.

I disagree with whatever side the OP is on.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > feather-throttle-not-hair
07/10/2014 at 16:53

Lol. The "older V6 Lancer" thing did make me chuckle. Perhaps someone swapped a Diamante engine into one? Idk, it's possible... but unlikely.

Textured Soy Protein > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 16:55

Automatics are fine by me if they're good. Which is why I drive a 135is DCT. The transmission is actually one of the reasons I got the car.

From all accounts, the Toyobaru automatic is not particularly good.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:04

If I were to go out tomorrow and buy an FRS/BRZ, it would be an automatic. Simply because I've never been exposed to a manual and would feel uncomfortable driving it.

feather-throttle-not-hair > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:09

In any case, i'm pretty onboard with what you were saying. I hate the "why not go back to crank starters" argument that people use against the manual transmission.

why not? Because ABSOLUTELY nobody thinks that a crank starter would make the car more fun to drive. No one is asking for that. It's totally irrelevant. It's like me saying "oh well you have an automatic in there, why not a get state of the art $15K espresso machine in there too? You like technology right?"

Also some dude claimed that an automatic in manual mode offers the same level of control as a manual. Which makes me think he or she has never driven a manual before.

To each their own. But i'm sorry, i will look down on people who buy fun cars and then get an automatic in it. Not like a lot, but a little part of me will always be disappointed in them.

Reigntastic > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:09

I have driven the FR-S in manual and with the automatic, I can definitively say that anyone who buys one with the auto is a moron, here's why:

It's a sports car.

The 6 speed in the FR-S/BRZ is legitimately one of the best feeling transmissions I have ever used, very short throw and consistent, easy to engage gears when downshifting.

Pedal box is plenty large enough for easy heel toe, as well.

Auto shifting pattern is not well suited to the power band of the car, shifts are hard to predict and slow, flappy paddles are not responsive. I would compare the flappy paddles of the Toyobaru twins to picking up dog shit with a plastic bag. Sure, you aren't touching the shit, but you're still holding it in your hand. If you want to be flappy paddle racecar driver, just go ahead and bite the bullet and buy the manual.

Clutch is light. This is a positive for someone who cries about "muh knee payns", but a negative for somebody more acquainted with manuals.

Driving a manual in traffic is not hard. I repeat, driving a manual in traffic is not hard. Buy the manual or forever regret your decision when doing anything interesting with the car.

Have fun at autocross with the auto, lol.

Stupidru > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:13

If I were to buy one, it would be manual. If I needed a car today and only autos were on the lot, I'd take the auto and not complain. If my wife was with me, we'd probably get the auto.

Reigntastic > Textured Soy Protein
07/10/2014 at 17:16

No, the Toyobaru automatic is awful. Flappy paddles are unresponsive, AT shift pattern is unpredictable and actively avoids the already anemic power band. Also weighs more.

Reigntastic > feather-throttle-not-hair
07/10/2014 at 17:17

Anybody who mentions manumatic whenever justifying an automatic compared to a manual just looks like an idiot. Not even remotely the same.

Reigntastic > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 17:19

Scared to try something new? Buddy of mine bought a BRZ with the manual as his first standard, and it took him about a day to have it down pat.

The automatic in the FRS/BRZ isn't even a good automatic, let alone decent competition for the MT. Weighs more, performs worse, isn't worth the extra money.

Reigntastic > Stupidru
07/10/2014 at 17:19

Never settle.

ShelbyRacer78-Fusion Modifier > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:20

I like my auto, I even found a way to shift it manually(ITS A DAMN SABLE)! 2nd gear pulls are fantastic now!!

Textured Soy Protein > Reigntastic
07/10/2014 at 17:24

Yeah, exactly why I wouldn't get an AT Toyobaru.

When I was in the process of getting my 135is, I also tried a 335i convertible with the 6-speed Steptronic auto. It wasn't terrible , but it also wasn't even in the same zip code as the DCT.

The other time I don't mind automatics is in vehicles with no sporting pretenses whatsoever. I've got an old Grand Cherokee to go with my 135is, and for something that drives like a couch, the auto doesn't bother me.

MazdaMonkey > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:26

I only read the first page of the thread but it was a very civil discussion for an online car forum, especially one for inexpensive imports!

Reigntastic > Textured Soy Protein
07/10/2014 at 17:29

I agree. I'm not crazy about DCT, but they have the performance to back up the paddles, and that's what counts. Comparing an auto to a DCT is almost as bad as comparing manumatic to a manual. After driving a 6MT E90 M3 and 335i, I would say that is still my pick, but performance-wise your DCT is arguably superior.

I like manual sports cars. If it's not designed with that in mind, I don't hold it to the same standard. I think it's really cool to see the occasional unicorn manual SUV or Pickup, but they really aren't the norm at all. It's nice to just relax and putt around in an auto, it just doesn't belong in a proper sports car.

MazdaMonkey > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:33

I think if the non-MT option in the FT-86 was a DCT, it would be a completely different conversation. The last few German DCT cars that I drove were surprisingly fun.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Reigntastic
07/10/2014 at 17:34

More like scared to fuck up the clutch or any other component that can be fucked up by not knowing what the hell I'm doing. Like I said, I'd feel uncomfortable DD'ing a manual 'til I had a good amount of experience with one.

As someone who DD a van with the 4L30-E GM transmission, any automatic is a good auto compared to that.

Reigntastic > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 17:40

Unless you're a bumbling moron you won't destroy a clutch learning how to drive MT, you might stall it a few times but it's really quite simple. Watch a few youtube videos, take risks, live a little.

Shit, to really glaze a clutch you would have to put the accelerator flat to the floor, and then slowly slip the clutch. You need to realize how unnatural and stupid this would be. All you do: find the traction point for the clutch throw, where the car starts to move forward and you see the RPMs dip. You will probably stall once, after you realize the traction point is further in that you thought. After that, slowly feather the clutch to the beginning of the traction point, and then give a tiny dab of throttle, 500-1000rpm is all you need. The car will begin to roll forward, gradually let out the clutch all the way while lightly applying throttle, once you are fully engaged just apply throttle like normal.

Starting from a stop is the only mildly challenging part of driving a manual. The BRZ isn't a torquey car, so it's easy to stall, but it's not a light flywheel and won't be finicky. It's seriously easy to use. I learned on a 2009 BMW M3 with my drunk father and uncle in the back seat, and I was able to drive it home the same day. I stalled, more than a few times. Everyone stalls. Everyone. It's part of learning, and it doesn't break your car.

TLDR: how are you ever going to learn how to drive a manual if you never try and learn to drive a manual.

Lalkidu > feather-throttle-not-hair
07/10/2014 at 17:41

Thank you my Brother. My sentiments exactly!

Garrett Davis > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 17:41

Anyone who argues, talks about, or writes about this is an idiot.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Reigntastic
07/10/2014 at 17:54

I'd learn on a car that wasn't my DD. Because I'd feel uncomfortable DD an manual until I had experience with one.

Reigntastic > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 17:58

I used to let people learn on my first manual DD, a 2010 Jetta 2.0T; but it was a sublease so I didn't care about it nearly as much as I could have. Do you have any friends that drive stick?

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Reigntastic
07/10/2014 at 17:59

No one I know drive a manual

Reigntastic > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 18:03

Sounds like you need to make cooler friends!

I kid. I know I'm giving you a lot of grief for a personal opinion, so I'll lay off. I don't normally try and piss non-burners off on oppo, so I'll cut the crap.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 18:07

Kinja'd!!!

So poser-ish...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 18:08

Kinja'd!!!

Saracen > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
07/10/2014 at 18:14

There shouldn't be a debate. Particularly when it comes to a sports car.

Manuél Ferrari > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 19:24

I understand your concern and why you'd rather not mess up a DD that you spent good money on.

But I wouldn't worry about it too much. Learning a manual is like having sex for the first time. It's scary and you worry about doing it wrong. But it's pretty much impossible to cause serious damage X-D

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
07/10/2014 at 19:50

Admittedly, I was a bit worried too. I'd driven some manuals in the past, but never enough to be good and certainly not enough to be completely comfortable. When it's a thing you HAVE to do every day to get somewhere, you catch on very quickly. At least I did. It's only been 2 weeks since I picked up the car, and I've gotten much much better. Granted, in those two weeks I've put over 1000k miles on the car (drove up to Michigan for the 4th of July weekend). Still I got a lot of practice, and it honestly doesn't take much to get the feel of it. I wish I could have first learned on a car with a gearbox as nice as the FR-S/BRZ! It's a very very forgiving manual to drive, and you would likely stall a lot less than you think.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > feather-throttle-not-hair
07/10/2014 at 19:53

If you look at the thread, you will notice that I address his claim of control equality. No auto enthusiast can honestly say, or believe themselves, that a manumatic offers the same control as a true manual transmission. They can come very very close, and indeed shift faster/smoother on the very nice paddle shift transmissions (Porsche PDK comes to mind, because I have to shill away for my company lol), but the control over the car is not the same.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > Reigntastic
07/10/2014 at 19:57

Yeah, I dreaded the traffic thing. But after dealing with Chicago/Michigan traffic through construction zones and during a holiday weekend, it's not as bad as I had made it out to be in my mind. Sure, you have to pay more attention to your driving... but that's a GOOD thing!

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > MazdaMonkey
07/10/2014 at 20:00

I do like that it stays pretty civil. A couple of more abrasive comments get made, but nothing too bad.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
08/14/2014 at 15:07

any automatic is a good auto compared to that.

Are you sure you really want to say that? *cough*FordE4OD*cough*

Also, the vans came with the 4L60-E or 4L80-E transmission...the 4L30-E was used in early 90s BMWs

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
08/14/2014 at 15:54

Whoops. I theres too many 4L##-E transmissions to keep track of.